UPDATE(PAF JETS):Korea’s TA-50 Golden Eagle or Italy’s M-346

[Rich]

Mathias seems it could manage the waves in Southampton water without swamping the engine, they had blanking baffles to reduce the chances of swamping but never used them, agreed not suitable in rough water.

There were only 3 prototypes built, the first had a metal canopy with a porthole the other 2 had plexiglas canopies, one hit some floating debris and was written off but pilot ok, the third was written off for whatever reason that I can not now remember.

Loved seeing the newsreels at the time of the SR A-1 and the SR Princess Passenger flying boat.

The paint is purely fiction as I suspect the Royal Navy would'nt want anything to do with it like the RAF with the Buccaneer till it was forced onto them with the demise of Ark Royal then they did'nt want to let go of them.

[aumarigan]

........



NO MIG29 or F18 in sight ?

Air Force was looking at either Korea’s TA-50 Golden Eagle or Italy’s M-346

Spratlys arms race heats up; AFP to buy six fighter jets(by Florante S. Solmerin)
Armed Forces chief Gen. Eduardo Oban Jr. said senior military officials had recommended an initial six multi-role planes to be acquired within the term of President Benigno Aquino III.

He said the Air Force was looking at either Korea’s TA-50 Golden Eagle or Italy’s M-346, and depending on their arms and in-flight instrumentation would cost about P1 billion each.

SOURCE: http://www.manilastandardtoday.com/insideNews.htm?f=2011/july/2/news1.isx&d=2011/july/2

A)Alenia Aermacchi M-346 Master:
'' a military transonic trainer aircraft. It is based on work done by Yakovlev and Aermacchi while working on the Yak-130 as a joint venture.''

Wiki pic

300px-M346-2023.jpg (3.79 KiB) Viewed 3403 times

General characteristics
Crew: two, student and instructor
Length: 11.49 m (37 ft 7 in)
Wingspan: 9.72 m (31 ft 9 in)
Height: 4.76 m (15 ft 6 in)
Wing area: 23.52 m² (253.2 ft²)
Empty weight: 4,610 kg (10,165 lb)
Loaded weight: 6,700 kg (14,770 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 9,500 kg (20,945 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × Honeywell F124-GA-200 , 27.8 kN (6,250 lbf) each
Performance
Never exceed speed: Mach 1.2 (1,460 km/h, 915 mph)
Maximum speed: 1,255 km/h (779 mph)
Stall speed: 166 km/h (104 mph)
Range: 1,890 km (1,181 miles)
Service ceiling: 13,715 m (45,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 6,401 m/min (21,000 ft/min)
Wing loading: 285 kg/m² (58.3 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 0.84
Armament
Nine hardpoints for a variety of guns, bombs, rockets and missiles

OPERATORS:
Italian Air Force(2009) 15 units
UAE Air Force(2009) 48 units
Singaporean Air Force (short listed for evals)

Source:http://www.aermacchi.it/commercial/m-346


B)KAI T-50 Golden Eagle(Please note: NEWS report points to a TA-50 variant..these specs are for the T-50)
'' is a family of South Korean supersonic advanced trainers and multirole fighters, developed by Korea Aerospace Industries beginning in the late 1990s.[1] The T-50 is South Korea's first indigenous supersonic aircraft and one of the world's few supersonic trainers. Currently, KAI is upgrading four T-50 Golden Eagle trainers into prototypes of advanced multirole fighters designated FA-50.''

Wiki pic

T50GoldenEagle.jpg (12.02 KiB) Viewed 3403 times

General characteristics
Crew: 2
Length: 12.98 m (42 ft 7 in)
Wingspan: 9.17 m (30 ft 1 in)
Height: 4.78 m (15 ft 8.25 in)
Empty weight: 6,450 kg (14,200 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 13,500 kg (29,700 lb)
Powerplant: 1× General Electric F404 afterburning turbofan
Dry thrust: 53.07 kN (11,925 lbf)
Thrust with afterburner: 78.7 kN (17,700 lbf)
Performance
Maximum speed: Mach 1.4~1.5[64][65]
Range: 1,851 km (1,150 mi)
Service ceiling: 16,760 m (55,000 ft)
Thrust/weight: 0.96[64]
Max g limit: -3 g / +8 g
Armament
Guns: 1× A-50 3-barreled 20 mm M197 Gatling gun
Rockets: Hydra 70, LOGIR
Missiles: ** Air-to-air: AIM-9 Sidewinder, AIM-120 AMRAAM[44]
Air-to-ground: AGM-65 Maverick
Bombs: Mk 82, Mk 83, and Mk 84 general purpose bombs with SPICE, JDAM, or JDAM-ER guidance kits; CBU-97/105 sensor fuzed weapons, laser-guided bombs

OPERATORS:
Rep of Korea Air Force 65 units(3 variants)
Indonesian Air Force 16 units (2011?)

Sources: http://web.archive.org/web/200806111024%20...%20RKTX-2.htm
:https://www.koreaaero.com/english/business/t50_03.asp
:https://www.koreaaero.com/english/business/t50_02.asp

...

[Hans]

I like their selection IMHO... but I'm rooting for the TA-50... I think its more versatile than the M-346... plus the fact that it's a descendant of the F-16...

unless the potential adversary has BVR shootdown capability, I think these little speedsters will be very hard to shoot down... they are very small by current fighter standards, and both are highly maneuverable, and can carry a good punch...

[aumarigan]

..

I like their selection IMHO... but I'm rooting for the TA-50... I think its more versatile than the M-346... plus the fact that it's a descendant of the F-16...

unless the potential adversary has BVR shootdown capability, I think these little speedsters will be very hard to shoot down... they are very small by current fighter standards, and both are highly maneuverable, and can carry a good punch...

I like the TA-50 too Hans...it has an afterburner and nice specs too. (Playing Iron Eagle soundtrack ) I love those wingtip mounted missiles. Both look like their twins eh?....and that structure above those engine intakes....ala F18 too...Tears of the Sun soundtrack now playing .. .hehehe

I hope RoKorea will help us out in acquiring better air assets. I got a feeling the Italians will get the contract........gut feel only...can't explain it

T50 cockpit:

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/koreas-t-50-spreads-its-wings-04004/

ELEC_T-50_Cockpit.jpg (19.43 KiB) Viewed 3396 times

Cutaway(see:http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_T-50_Cutaway_lg.jpg)

http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images

AIR_T-50_Cutaway_lgsm3.jpg (27.72 KiB) Viewed 3367 times

The T-50 family’s empty weight is 14,000 pounds, and maximum takeoff gross weight is 29,700 pounds; the F404-GE-102 engine produces 17,700 pounds of thrust. Maximum rate of climb is 39,000 feet per minute; and the maximum speed is Mach 1.5. Service ceiling is 48,500 feet, the design load factor is 8gs, and the trainer airframe is designed for up to 10,000-hour service life (8,344 hours for the A-50).

Still, the plane is designed to be a trainer, with better rear visibility than a 2-seat F-16. An “active stick” ensures that stick movements in the front or rear are transmitted to the stick in the other seat, to improve monitoring and learning. Embedded training features, in-flight recording and post-mission debriefing capability are all built in. The standard tools of a modern fighter pilot’s trade are likewise present: “glass cockpit” of digital screens, HUD (Head Up Displays), HOTAS (Hands On Stick And Throttle) control systems to keep everything at the pilot’s fingertips, triple-redundant electrical system, fly-by-wire, advanced radio and navigation systems including INS/GPS, and a Martin-Baker zero-zero ejection seat. The seat back angle is 17 degrees – similar to the seat angles of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter and the F/A-22.

Per the standards for modern trainers, the aircraft is part of a larger, integrated training system that includes simulators, computer-based training, cockpit and maintenance trainers, and a training management system.

Maintenance has also received careful thought. The new trainer’s airframe will require no mandatory depot maintenance, and the aircraft boasts a “single-tier design” with some 250 access panels allowing technicians to get at any major system without having to remove any others. Extensive self-diagnostics will help keep maintenance costs down.

Source:http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com


One last thing.....would you believe our AFP is also PLANNING TO BUY A SUBMARINE?? WHERE THE HECK ARE WE GOING TO GET THE MONEY FROM?? Sorry guys...this is a navy thing....but .....jet fighters and a submarine??? I LOVE the jet fighter thingy....but a submarine? Anyway.....we have submarine downloads for FS9 and FSX right? hehehe
SOURCE::::http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/nation/05/12/11/philippine-navy-bent-buying-submarine


somebody get me a glass of coooold water ....

[Hans]

it is powered by a similar powerplant as the legacy F/A-18s, plus it is capable of launching AMRAAMs... interesting...

subs? better take that with a grain of salt for the meantime... I think generally we have shallow, rocky, seas, plus dozens of protected wildlife areas... we're better of with surface ships...

[Kevin]

I saw both planes fly at the 2008 Singapore Airshow. They were competing against each other for the Republic of Singapore Air Force advanced jet trainer contract. Aermacchi eventually won, but to my untrained eye the TA-50 was a lot more impressive performance-wise. I was, like, "That's a trainer???"

The plane can easily outperform the F-5A.

Of course Singapore has F-16s by the bushel. They don't need the TA-50s fighter-like performance, its similarity to the F-16 notwithstanding.

[jap_ZERO_ONE]

The KAI T-50's airframe reminds me of the F/A-18, F-5 and F-16 airframes. Clearly one of the light fighter aircraft types. If you ask me, this is a more realistic option, rather than purchasing the F/A-18 or Mig-29

One last thing.....would you believe our AFP is also PLANNING TO BUY A SUBMARINE?? WHERE THE HECK ARE WE GOING TO GET THE MONEY FROM?? Sorry guys...this is a navy thing....but .....jet fighters and a submarine??? I LOVE the jet fighter thingy....but a submarine? Anyway.....we have submarine downloads for FS9 and FSX right? hehehe
SOURCE::::http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/nation/05/12/11/philippine-navy-bent-buying-submarine

I heard about this a couple of months ago, I think. Subs are fine, provided that the PN knows how to maximize their potential, just like any other military hardware. Now that might be a challenge for them since ours is a brown-water navy and subs are better deployed out in the open seas where they can take advantage of the depths. Having a sub operate near the coastlines and shallow territorial waters might be too risky, possibly an accident waiting to happen.

[aumarigan]

jap_ZERO_ONE wrote:
The KAI T-50's airframe reminds me of the F/A-18, F-5 and F-16 airframes. Clearly one of the light fighter aircraft types. If you ask me, this is a more realistic option, rather than purchasing the F/A-18 or Mig-29

I agree with you sir Jap_Zero-One....this is more realistic. The PAFs budget is approx..P/1 Billion per jet fighter. I hope we purchase the better variant of the Golden Eagle.

Kevin wrote:
Of course Singapore has F-16s by the bushel. They don't need the TA-50s fighter-like performance, its similarity to the F-16 notwithstanding.

I agree...

I hope we don't end up with a jet ''fighter'' armed only with two 7shot rocket pods,bombs and an external .50cal gun pod(ala S211 set up)....with no air-to-air capability at all....

[Shadowfox M40A1]

Well, the truth hurts but AMRAAMs are expensive, AGM-65 Mavericks are expensive, GBU-12s are expensive, AGM-84 Harpoons are expensive. The fact is, whatever we're buying, it will only end up a mere sophisticated launch platform for unguided weapons -- 2.75 rockets and dumb bombs dropped by smart pilots. It's like buying a Core i7 Sandy Bridge PC with 32GB of DDR3 RAM, 120GB SSDs and a Radeon HD 6970 video card plus all the bells and whistles but you only intend to use it for running Microsoft Word 2003.

[aumarigan]

Well, the truth hurts but AMRAAMs are expensive, AGM-65 Mavericks are expensive, GBU-12s are expensive, AGM-84 Harpoons are expensive. The fact is, whatever we're buying, it will only end up a mere sophisticated launch platform for unguided weapons -- 2.75 rockets and dumb bombs dropped by smart pilots. It's like buying a Core i7 Sandy Bridge PC with 32GB of DDR3 RAM, 120GB SSDs and a Radeon HD 6970 video card plus all the bells and whistles but you only intend to use it for running Microsoft Word 2003.

I agree with you Sir Shadowfox, the PAF F5s were armed with Sidewinders. But ,I seldom see the Freedom Fighters(net,news pics,videos etc.) armed with the Sidewinder,especially at the end of the F5s career. I guess the PAF found it hard to maintain and replace the missiles. Probably the same reason why the PAF F8 Crusaders were doing CAP without any missiles.

I have seen footages of PAF MG520s,OV10s and S211s doing successful bombing runs & rocket attacks...I salute our pilots for doing an excellent(x20) job ,with limited resources at its disposal. (ex.Replacing cyclic and throttle switches of an MG520 with one molded from a mahjong tile,going to Quiapo to find cheaper alternative gun sight bulbs...an old Youtube vid, i guess most of you have seen this na:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wi_Vs9bpwU)

Current price for Sidewinder = almost P 4-5 million/pc

I hope the next jet fighter will have an ample air-to-air and air-to-ground capability. The latest Sidewinder model would suffice.... FOX TWO!!



The truth hurts.....

[aumarigan]

Foreign jet harassed PHL fishing boat off Spratlys by KBK, GMA News,07/04/2011

The incident occurred June 4 at the Dalagang Bukid Shoal, located about 131 nautical miles from Puerto Princesa City, according to Pama.

“The unidentified jet buzzed our fishing boat about 20 to 30 feet from the top of the mast of the fishing boat," Pama said. “The fishermen were not able to identify the origin [of the plane]. They just said it’s a jet because it produced a loud sound."

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/225278/nation/navy-foreign-jet-harassed-phl-fishing-boat-off-spratlys

This is not Spratly's anymore......its 131 nm from Puerto Princesa.....

The Philippine Navy and Air force better provide these Filipino fishermen :

1.Aircraft identification/recognition Manual/booklet (maybe those were S211s?)

-current "textures" used by other claimants (sorry for using a flightsim term hehehe..can't help it)
-air force roundels used by all claimants
-Silhouettes of aircraft

2. Digital Cameras(they can bring their own eh? );

Ala Russian Fishing Trawler eh? hehehe

The government should substantiate its statements with solid evidence(photo,videos.....)


And go purchase jet fighters that are REAL jet fighters....not those puny trainers of yore....

Back to reality....I'm rooting for the Golden Eagle....with sidewinders...and stop sending our PhAF pilots (on patrol) in jet ''fighters'' armed with pea-shooting .50 cal gun-pods...

_______________________

[Jaime U.]

Foreign jet harassed PHL fishing boat off Spratlys by KBK, GMA News,07/04/2011

The incident occurred June 4 at the Dalagang Bukid Shoal, located about 131 nautical miles from Puerto Princesa City, according to Pama.

“The unidentified jet buzzed our fishing boat about 20 to 30 feet from the top of the mast of the fishing boat," Pama said. “The fishermen were not able to identify the origin [of the plane]. They just said it’s a jet because it produced a loud sound."

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/225278/nation/navy-foreign-jet-harassed-phl-fishing-boat-off-spratlys

This is not Spratly's anymore......its 131 nm from Puerto Princesa.....

The Philippine Navy and Air force better provide these Filipino fishermen :

1.Aircraft identification/recognition Manual/booklet (maybe those were S211s?)

-current "textures" used by other claimants (sorry for using a flightsim term hehehe..can't help it)
-air force roundels used by all claimants
-Silhouettes of aircraft

2. Digital Cameras(they can bring their own eh? );

Ala Russian Fishing Trawler eh? hehehe

The government should substantiate its statements with solid evidence(photo,videos.....)


And go purchase jet fighters that are REAL jet fighters....not those puny trainers of yore....

Back to reality....I'm rooting for the Golden Eagle....with sidewinders...and stop sending our PhAF pilots (on patrol) in jet ''fighters'' armed with pea-shooting .50 cal gun-pods...

_______________________

Well, the reality is, that even if we do get fighter aircraft or whatever, there isn't an operational budget to keep them making daily sorties. Just how often do you think PAF pilots get to fly? And operating fighters are very expensive.

The only AAM in our arsenal is the AIM-9B (assuming that they even work). Sidewinders? I would be looking at the Vympel R-73...

In spite of our "special relations," with the U.S. of A., we are never given front line equipment. Conquered belligerent states such as Iraq and Afghanistan get better stuff than we do. The joke in the film, The Mouse That Roared was to declare war on America and then surrender and reap the benefits of a being a former enemy.

The reason why we are interested in the T-50? Lockheed Martin:

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http://www.lockheedmartin.com/paris/mag ... _mini.html

We're better off buying the best UAVs we can afford.

[aumarigan]

Jaime U. wrote:
Well, the reality is, that even if we do get fighter aircraft or whatever, there isn't an operational budget to keep them making daily sorties. Just how often do you think PAF pilots get to fly? And operating fighters are very expensive.

Yah ,I guess annual operating expenses for a single jet fighter alone can be in millions of dollars/pesos(?).

Just how often do our PAF pilots get to fly patrol sorties at Spratlys?

The only AAM in our arsenal is the AIM-9B (assuming that they even work). Sidewinders? I would be looking at the Vympel R-73...

Maintaining the AIM-9s are also expensive...missiles need constant upgrading ,considering the infrared countermeasures in the market .

Wikipic

A ALQ-144 modulated IRCM jammer.jpg (8.12 KiB) Viewed 3182 times

Its solid propellant needs replacement after a few years too? Probably the only AIM9s we have left are displayed with the F5 at the PAF Museum? Duds...

In spite of our "special relations," with the U.S. of A., we are never given front line equipment. Conquered belligerent states such as Iraq and Afghanistan get better stuff than we do. The joke in the film, The Mouse That Roared was to declare war on America and then surrender and reap the benefits of a being a former enemy.

I agree with you 100% on this sir....F-16s,M1 Abrams and Apaches were also supplied to Egypt and other unstable middle eastern states. Maybe if we have oil fields the USA can "explore".....he he he


____________________________

We have to douse ourself with cold water and seek peaceful/diplomatic means to solve the Spratlys' issue. Avoid press releases accusing other countries of harassing our OV10s and fishing vessels without solid evidence. Arm the fisher folks and soldiers/airmmen with aircraft recognition manuals and cameras. Show the vids and pics at the UN as proof (eg. Cuban Missile Crisis). ......and maybe there is no need to fly daily sorties. Just make sure there are fighters ready to scramble and escort the intruders out of our airspace. In reality its more complicated than this eh?

Continue with the diplomatic efforts and not so diplomatic actions (ex.removal of Chinese markers) and formulate long term ,or in our case medium term procurement plans for our PAF/AFP .

The truth hurts...we need to defend our share of the Spratlys......we need these expensive jet fighters/trainers...our FISHING VESSELS
are being harassed 131 nautical miles from Puerto Princesa City.

There is a need to bite the bullet and avoid extravagant and shortminded military expenditures......avoid mistakes of the past.

Even if we can afford brand new Super Hornets,as long as it(purchase and maintenance) is tainted with pasalubongs and pabaons......we will still end up with a Super Hornet fit for an Air Museum.....or a junk yard(?).

____________________________________________




FOX TWO!

[aumarigan]

__


PAF CHECKLIST:

ACQUIRE NEW UTILITY/COMBAT CHOPPERS= CHECK!
ACQUIRE NEW (SIX) JET ''FIGHTERS'' =CHECK!
REPAIR OLD PAG-ASA AIRSTRIP = ---

REALITY CHECK........ =CHECK! my checklist? he he

From Woody Island, China will have no problem sending its warplanes to the Spratlys as this is well within the operational radius of its fighters. However, one of China’s multirole fighters can reach as far Metro Manila.

Apart from the “unsinkable” aircraft carrier, China is scheduled to start sea trials of its first real aircraft carrier, the Shi Lang.
SOURCE: http://www.interaksyon.com

''Other claimants have the muscle, too...''

A)CHINA:

SOURCE:INTERAKSYON.COM/CHINA

dj0614_3.JPG (50.52 KiB) Viewed 3129 times

SOURCE:INTERAKSYON.COM/CHINACARRIER

dj0614_4.JPG (41.96 KiB) Viewed 3129 times

China tries a fast one on PH again in the Spratlys/By Victor Reyes/Malaya

While Chinese Defense Minister Liang Guanglie was making a “goodwill visit” in Manila less than two weeks ago, his people were attempting to set up structures in an island, 126 nautical miles away from Palawan.http://www.ellentordesillas.com/?p=16357

B)MALAYSIA:

SOURCE:INTERAKSYON.COM/MALAYSIA

dj0614_5.JPG (44.37 KiB) Viewed 3129 times

C)TAIWAN:

SOURCE:INTERAKSYON.COM/TAIWAN

dj0614_6.JPG (40.17 KiB) Viewed 3129 times

D)VIETNAM:

SOURCE:INTERAKSYON.COM/VIETNAM

dj0614_7.JPG (43.02 KiB) Viewed 3129 times

SOURCE: http://www.interaksyon.com



__

[Shadowfox M40A1]

Imagine Saburo Sakai in his Zero with only a centerline droptank flying all the way from Formosa to escort some bombers and back with the leanest fuel mixture possible and almost at stall speed. You can't find that in the POH, he just figured it out by trial & error, experience, and just his sheer familiarity of the plane he's flying inside and out.

That's airmanship.

If conflict erupts, I wouldn't worry too much about buying fighters and stuff. Regardless of the odds, I have an obligation to defend my country anyway. Not hi-tech by any means, but I'll just wait for them to come onshore and give them a welcome reception with this:

[aumarigan]

Shadowfox wrote:
If conflict erupts, I wouldn't worry too much about buying fighters and stuff. Regardless of the odds, I have an obligation to defend my country anyway. Not hi-tech by any means, but I'll just wait for them to come onshore and give them a welcome reception with this:

Nice M14....hehehe ..../I'll go for ala militia rifle....hehehe
M-1

300px-M1-Garand-Rifle.jpg (5.56 KiB) Viewed 3069 times

Anyway...lets hope for peace and the Golden Eagle




.FOX TWO!

[aumarigan]

.


Regarding the T-50.....just saw a pic of Sir Windtalker here at PFSG ,posted 7 years ago, in a T-50 simulator...PFSG post:http://www.philskies.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2761&hilit=tower+sim#p20110

SOURCE:http://www.philskies.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2761&hilit=tower+sim#p20110

10.jpg (36.98 KiB) Viewed 3002 times

.

[Stuka]

.



* * * bump * * *

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These words are from a lovely old PC game and WOW!! now they become a reality. Now everyone can become a Fighter Pilot and the best will become an ACE, because here is the revolutionary SF/1

d'ya think the committee will consider the SF1?

SF1.jpg (37.28 KiB) Viewed 2430 times

for any fighter-jock wannabe, this is as close as one can get to the realms of affordability.

http://www.aerosports.gr/



16 yr old tames the SF1.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5iniedw6i0




.

[Arcebee]

I guess it's official. The PAF is acquiring 12 of the TA-50's.

[Shadowfox M40A1]

Reliability of AAMs was a problem back then during Vietnam both for heaters and radar-guided missiles. You have problems ranging from seeker reliability issues or performance limitations -- it can't distinguish between a bandit's tailpipe, the sun, the jet efflux or flares, that sometimes even though pilots are in a perfect firing position and well within weapons launch parameters, they had to wait for that instant when the bandit was against a clear blue sky to get a good solid tracking tone. The Sparrows were notorious too -- rocket motors that failed to ignite or like takes forever; warheads that explode prematurely due to faulty proximity fusing. So for good measure, some experienced pilots would fire a pair to increase the probability of kill while some wished their jets had an internal 20mm gun when the fight gets too close. But between the two, the Sidewinder was the champion MiG killer. In Desert Storm and succeeding conflicts, technology has come a long way that we now have better weapons and a more reliable IFF system and other methods of differentiating a friend from a foe. Most air-to-air kills were made with radar-guided missiles at medium range.

Regarding the TA-50, well, it certainly is a light fighter. The way it was made, it somehow combined the best qualities of the F-16 and F-18 and blended them together. But if PAF won't give it at least some air-to-air capability, then as far as the bad guys are concerned, it won't be much of a threat and would be treated no differently but as an S-211 on steroids. The enemy will only respect you only when they know you can shoot back.